Curse

Crom The Pale · Apr 27, 2008, 01:31 PM // 13:31

The Perfect Mission, is not Hell's Precipice. However it does have many of the features that should be in the "Perfect Mission".

What makes a mission perfect?
Challenge + Fun = Perfect, for me at least.

What is challenging in GW?
Challenge for me is facing a problem that needs to be solved. In GW missions the problem is finding the correct build, party layout and path to victory inside of the mission.

What is fun?
Fun for me is to find the solution to the problem and execute it perfectly.

So all this brings us to Hell's Precipice and what it has that makes it close to the perfect mission.

First off will be your foes.
Titans - possibly the most unique in all of GW as they self spawn after you kill them. (war-->necro-->2wars)
Spark of Titans - powerfull elementals.(fire)
Portal Wraiths - another group of eles but with different focus(air)
7 Bosses covering almost every profession.(5 titans + war + Lich)---(thanks for the correction nbajammer forgot about no monk boss)
And let us not forget the random Meteor's falling throught the mission.

Next comes Game Play(methods of wining).
Pulling foes VS Charging in for the kill. While there are large mobs in this mission they pull apart well, allowing for some clever separation and killing. However your also forced to charge into a mob now and again.
There is a small defend target NPC as well(Sear) though he still dies far to quickly on Hard Mode.
Multiple paths that will get you to the end, though they are all fairly close together and wind up in a single path about 50% into the mission, its still more options than in most straight line missions.

Killing the Boss. A unique concept they didn't quite get right, but with great potential. Its not just about charging in and destroying the end boss(Lich), but you need to kill him in a certain location or he just respawns. Now imagine if the AI for the Lich made him wander off and you had to pull him, trap him, slow him down to keep him on the BloodStone in order to defeat him and win the mission?

Emotional component to the mission as well. An old friend returns to face you as an enemy. Most of GW seams to be rather weak on that emotional conection that other RPG's have in them. This was the biggest and the best in all of GW.

Ok so here is my general outline for the perfect mission.

1) Foes, give us a good variety that are some how unique from what we've faced up till that point.
2) Pulling, I really love being able to pull a single target out of a mob and kill it. This needs some limitation however so that if you pull target X(monk/boss) you might get the entire mob instead of just 1-2 foes.
3) Multiple paths to vicotry, not just a fork in the road but different objectives that will each lead to victory but with greater rewards for the greater challenge.(for hells one path skips the bonus, imagine another that skipped the portals giving you the -Normal-Expert-Master-Rewards if you take all 3 paths)
4) Defend the NPC, this is something people either love or hate. I like the idea that you reach a certain point, the NPC spawns and you are forced to defend vs 1-3 incoming mobs then you move off and can safely ignore the NPC from that point on.
4) Emotional content, give us a real good reason to HATE that boss at the end. I want to shout "YES, EAT THAT SUCKER!" at the end of a mission, not just yawn and watch the loading screen.
5) The End Boss, give us something more than just kill the target. Having a boss that attempts to excape might be nice. Imagine if a Boss could fly and you had to draw him to the ground to kill him or lead him into water or onto ice that you would break so he fell in.

So this is what I think belongs in the perfect mission, Hell's Precipice came close. What do you think belongs in the perfect mission?

dunky_g · Apr 27, 2008, 01:34 PM // 13:34

urm

Baddies.

Goodies.

Goldies.

But my fav mission is Nahpui Quater

find it a blast

tumatae · Apr 27, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

i agree, having done that mission again for the new weapons recently and reading this, i realize that mission was kinda cool.

Another one of my favorites is Vizuah square HM, whats more fun than being surrounded by hundreds of exploding nasties and having a second team working with ya. Only thing bad about that mish is Togo or Mhenlo gets stuck sometimes.

And of course theres that gates of madness, always have to be careful there even in nm

Pesi · Apr 27, 2008, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Hell's has been one of my favourite missions for a long time aswell-
unwalking waters is a mission is like, and hate on the same time.

Carboplatin · Apr 27, 2008, 01:57 PM // 13:57

the missions in prophecies are by far the best in comparison to other chapters imo. some of them are rather challenging and back in the days, we didn't have heros... which could be good and bad.

fenix · Apr 27, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

I think Gate of Madness is also close to being the perfect mission. As you have very strong groups, various ways to travel through the mission, and not only that, there are the Portals, and TWO main bosses. Then the bonus, which you have to capture the altars without being killed. It's weakened by the door glitch, but still quite enjoyable.

Malice Black · Apr 27, 2008, 02:02 PM // 14:02

I always liked THK (before the nerf)

THK required a good amount of team work, coupled with decent amount of firepower/healing.

Worst type of either protect the NPC (which are either slow/dumb, or in most cases both)

Ones which require you to go back and forth. Bloodstone Fen with H/H.

ShadowbaneX · Apr 27, 2008, 02:10 PM // 14:10

I wouldn't mind a change to Hell's so that it reflects the other campaigns. Namely I think it should end with Rurik. Buff that fight if necessary, make it more dramatic or challenging or whatever, but let's have the Lich fight as a serperate mission. Now that there's end game greens in Prophecies, it should be similar to how fighting Shiro, Abaddon or the Great Destroyer are in the other campaigns.

Some titles might need to be changed (Proector/Guardian), and speaking as somsone that already has Legendary Guardian if they credit us with the new Hell's (ie up to killing Shiro) and I only have to kill the Lich to reclaim my title, well, that's fine with me.

Ork Pride · Apr 27, 2008, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Boring, boring and RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing boring.

Saraphim · Apr 27, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

I think Gate of Madness is also close to being the perfect mission. As you have very strong groups, various ways to travel through the mission, and not only that, there are the Portals, and TWO main bosses. Then the bonus, which you have to capture the altars without being killed. It's weakened by the door glitch, but still quite enjoyable.

I like GoM a lot, but find the bonus a bit weak to be honest. It only took me a few seconds to realise that all you have to do to breeze through it is: as soon as you take down the margonites on the shrine run around it till it goes blue and Shiro can't get a purchase on any of you. Benny Hilll syndrome in reverse, if you will. Makes a change from chasing them I suppose..

Nice post though Crom, I hadn't done HP for well over a year till this week and had forgotten that you actually need to employ some tactics in it.

Zinger314 · Apr 27, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Fun != PuG Frustration.

pumpkin pie · Apr 27, 2008, 03:23 PM // 15:23

sometimes charging in is fun. (and not get wipe out, there's a different lol)

lolololol, thats why I like playing with H/H, cos I can agro the whole lots or not, if you play with someone else, agro is always a nono, with my latest water ele + wards i can charge some and pull some in Hell, that aside,

I actually like Vizunah Squares, I can do that mission many many times, over and over, and not get bored, but the waiting for the mission to start is a killer. I like it becasue, players gets randomly pick other players who join forces, its very unique. (but lately I always get a whole group of NPCs..)

nbajammer · Apr 27, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Fyi OP, there is no Monk boss in Hell's Precipice.

angmar_nite · Apr 27, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Charging in is ridiculously fun. SMS wiped pretty bad in NM there and it wasn't cause my blindbotting was bad.

Sab · Apr 27, 2008, 05:32 PM // 17:32

I like Vizunah Square because blowing shit up for 20 minutes straight makes me wet.

Vinraith · Apr 27, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

I pretty much agree with the OP. Any mission that requires several attempts with serious rethinking of builds, team, and tactics in between is a good one.

Abedeus · Apr 27, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I like Vizunah Square because blowing shit up for 20 minutes straight makes me wet.

Well, I like it too... If the other team is not full or henches/retards that let Mhenlo/Togo die.

HP is pretty good mission, although my favorite is Abaddon's Gate ;o Even without the RoD/life stealing bug it's damn fun mission, weakening boss, then pwning the hell out of him. Like the 1st boss in Devil May Cry (Cerberus).

THK is pretty boring. It was challenging for me (last time I did it was two months ago while making Protector) was because I didn't get infused set ;o

zwei2stein · Apr 27, 2008, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Well, yeah, HP is good mission.

Difficulty is perfect mix which:
* Allows rampage trough it if you are good.
* Hard enough to punish incompetence and make one think.
* Easy enough to be defeatable by patient inexperienced group.

Its kinda cool with fact that it allows both express explodestuff walts (agroing pretty much everything on portal plain and watching it to explode...) as well as slow-but easy pulling.

And thank god, last boss is not frustrating letdown that would unnecesarily aggravate people. (imagine how muchunnecesary qq would there be if lich was shiros long lost brother of some sort.)

Multiple paths are also nice.

All in all, decent design. Not really great mission, but fun one.

Konig Des Todes · Apr 27, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

I wouldn't call Hell's Precipice the perfect mission, but it is probably the closest to the perfect mission in GW. What I would consider Hell's Precipice, is the Perfect End to a game. One of the OP's points that make a perfect mission is a end boss, not all missions can have one, as not all missions are "kill this guy." However, that is a concept that is something that can be put in a lot of missions. As for the Emotional issue, that is also very hard to put in all missions, but can be done a bit more then it is done in GW *I can only think of a few missions that do, and ALL are in Prophecies*. HP is definably the best mission in the game, at least for me. And is, by far, the best end-game mission, its not just "go in, kill this guy, go out in under 5 min" like the rest.

Chthon · Apr 27, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

1. I agree on challenge. Though powercreep has made Hell's much easier now, I remember that it had the perfect level of difficulty back in Prophecies -- one mob was beatable, but two at the same time almost surely meant wipe.

2. Pulling. I love pulling. Prophecies is full of great pulls. I love grabbing hands & fists of the titans with a longbow as they troop put of the lava pools. I also really loved dismantling tombs 1 mob at a time. Sadly, the devs seem to have lost sight of pulling as the campaigns have gone on.

3. Length. Hell's had a perfect length (back before power creep). It was a long, challenging mission that wound around and then culminated in two bosses that were challenging, but not so hard that wiping at the very end was really likely. Gate of Madness kinda captures this effect too, though Shiro is perhaps a bit too nasty unless you build around him.

4. You're not forced into narrow builds to finish the mission. You can finish Hell's with almost any combination of classes, so long as there's some healing in there. Unlike Factions where only a small handful of skills belonging to a small handful of classes have any real hope of beating Shiro, you don't have to bring 4 warriors, or cap one specific elite, or do something else along that vein to beat Hell's.
That's not to say that you didn't build for Hell's. Until it got bugged, winter was a staple skill, and you should still be planning around those darned sparks. But there's a difference between a mission that makes you adjust the team you've already got and one that makes you find a whole new team.